Jeff Church is the Vice President of Research and Process Development at Thinc Pure, a leading extract manufacturer in Washington State. He is a renowned hash expert and helped break the story of Rosin Tech when we reported on the now-ubiquitous extraction method last year. Jeff recently joined our host Shango Los for a conversation about a new cannabis trend: the idea of extracting pure terpenes to add flavors to cannabis products. In the interview, Jeff talks about the finer points of operating an extraction machine to isolate terpenes, why this process is becoming popular, and how people go about adding terps to their cannabis products.
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Shango Los: Hello and welcome to the Ganjapreneur.com podcast. I am your host Shango Los. The Ganjapreneur.com podcast gives us an opportunity to speak directly to entrepreneurs, cannabis growers, product developers, and cannabis medicine researchers all focused on making the most of cannabis normalization. As your host I do my best to bring you original cannabis industry ideas that will ignite your own entrepreneurial spark and give you actual information, to improve you business strategy and improve your health and the health of cannabis patients everywhere.
Today my guest is Jeff Church. Jeff Church is Vice President of Research and Process Development at Thinc Pure. Over the last 20 years Jeff has worked with every modern extraction method and enjoys researching ancient hash making techniques. Jeff Church is also know online as Reverend Cannabis and today he is here to talk with me about fortifying cannabis products with extra terpenes. Welcome back to the show Jeff.
Jeff Church: Thanks for having me Shango.
Shango Los: Jeff let’s start at the very beginning by establishing for folks new to the topic why terpenes are so beneficial. Why does your extraction team work so hard to preserve terpenes in the final product that is delivered to your customer or patient?
Jeff Church: Terpenes are really the embodiment of what the different effects are that you’re going to get from different cannabis extracts. The flavor is all in the terpenes. The cannabinoids THC, CBD have their own effects but without the terpenes to modulate that effect you really have kind of a flat effect that is nothing really special.
Shango Los: In the early days I really didn’t get what terpenes were until the first time I came across citrine. I’m like “Oh like citrus.” Just like when I cut into a piece of citrus suddenly I’m feeling stimulated and happy and the world is great. Then I realized that really at the heart of cannabis is aromatherapy.
Jeff Church: Exactly. That’s precisely it. There’s many different terpenes. There’s limonene which is going to give you a really up kind of an effect. There’s myrcene which, I mean limonene — it’s from citrus as well. Myrcene which is from mangos is going to give you a relaxed effect. There’s many, many, many more terpenes: 150 of them that have been tested in cannabis.
Shango Los: Efforts to preserve terpenes began by extractors studying how best to use the technology. If you had an Eden CO2 Extractor, you were twiddling the knobs and working with your time and everything so that you could preserve enough terpenes in the end process. A lot of incredible oil is now being made because of all those efforts and shared intelligence by extractors. Now though some producers want to fortify their products with additional terpenes. It’s moved more towards adding some extra punch to your product so it either tastes better or it has more medicinal qualities. What are some of the sources of these terpenes that are being added to the final product?
Jeff Church: That’s definitely a great question. There’s 2 main categories that I see. Well, 3 really. There’s plant-based terpenes which are extracted from any plant. Limonene can be extracted from citrus. Linalool can be extracted from lavender. Humulene from hops. Myrcene from mangos but there’s also synthetic versions of those that can be created in the lab just to basically be that molecule. Those are the one direction, the one class is the natural and the synthetic.
Then there’s something called cannabis derived terpenes. Those are exactly what they say they are. They’re terpenes derived from different strains of cannabis. All these different cultivars have a unique fingerprint in them so deriving these terpenes from them really carry that effect over into your extract.
Shango Los: Is myrcene from a mango chemically the same as the myrcene that’s in cannabis?
Jeff Church: Yes it definitely is. The effect that you get from the myrcene in cannabis is the effect that you’re going to get from myrcene in mango. One caveat though is you don’t have all of the other terpenes present if you’re just extracting it from mango and you may have some terpenes that would never be present in cannabis at all that are extracted from that mango. When you have this pure myrcene it’s going to be 99.something percent pure. There’s always going to be something else in there that is from its original source.
When you’re smoking these things it’s like you’re smoking a derivative of that plant rather than smoking cannabis.
Shango Los: All right well then I must admit I’m kind of surprised because when I normally think of eating mangos I don’t think about the myrcene effect which is one of the things that I really love about indicas. A little bit of couch lock, a little bit of munchies, a little bit of body relaxation. It actually puts me second guessing my original opinion that I came into this show with that adding terpenes was totally uncool from food sources.
I’ve seen some folks that are doing pet products: CBD from hemp pet products. They’re adding terpenes from food products like mango and other things and they’re calling it “whole plant medicine,” which that’s just patently untrue, but the idea of getting a terpene from a food and then adding it to a cannabis product: I was really against it just because it felt like bringing in something alien. What are your thoughts about that?
Jeff Church: It’s definitely not something that I want to consume myself. I think that there’s a big market out there for nicotine vape pens with all these different fruit flavors and things like that. I think that there’s a market for it. Is the effect going to be there as great as it would be from cannabis? I don’t know. Just as there’s myrcene in mangos there’s going to be other things in there that are going to modulate the uptake of cannabinoids or lessen the effect of the myrcene.
Where eating a mango is not going to knock you out but having a really really myrcene high cultivar of cannabis will bring you down. It’s more of a flavoring thing I feel like when you’re extracting fruit flavors and things like that. You can get the pure terpenes and they definitely have their modulating effects but I don’t know that you’re really going to much further than getting a small amount of modulation with the flavor where cannabis it’s able to modulate the effect quite strongly.
Shango Los: Right on. That’s going to naturally fit into talking about extracting terpenes from “whole plant” cannabis but before we do that let’s hit the intentional flavoring of cartridges for a second. We’ve all smelled or some people are using nicotine pens and they’ve got Wild Cherry or Honey and Milk or whatever it is. Mostly I smell them when I’m walking down the street and somebody exhales. I’ve had 2 different companies who have intentionally added flavor to their oil cartridges. The first one was mango and I won’t say the name of the company because I didn’t care for it at all.
It tasted really cheap like if there was a mango breakfast cereal. It tasted inauthentic but then I had one last week that I got from the rep of Kurvana down in California and my god the banana. It tasted so good. It also had a terp base of actual cannabis flower so it was everything I know and I love and am familiar with with a regular cannabis terpene but then it had this little “umph” of banana and it tasted really authentic.
I was getting this information second hand and so from what I understand they actually extract their own bananas to create their own terpenes so that it tastes really good. I was like “Man while I probably wouldn’t be using a banana cartridge all the time” … it was treat. When I passed it around to people who were with me they were like “Wow. That’s really good.”
I guess while it may not be my personal preference I definitely can see the attraction to it.
Jeff Church: Exactly. It’s not like you’re going to find … actually nowadays there’s a strawberry banana flavored cultivars of cannabis. There’s many different flavors of cannabis for sure so banana is not completely foreign to the whole equation but you really hit it on the head. It has all of those other terpenes that are in the cannabis plant. If they extracted it really well, tried to preserve those terpenes the best they could, and then added in this banana flavor that they extracted in a really nice method so that you’re really getting the full embodiment of the banana then it’s going to be a pleasurable experience.
Now is the banana going to add to the modulation of the effect that you get? That’s questionable. The modulation can happen just by your enjoyment, right? If you’re really enjoying something a lot then that’s going to be pleasurable for you. It’s going to make the whole experience feel a lot better.
Shango Los: I think that’s probably the same thing that people do with banana daiquiris right?
Jeff Church: Exactly.
Shango Los: Because even though the banana is not adding anything to the modulation it’s like “Hey my drink makes me feel like I’m on a tropical vacation so I’m feeling even more festive even though I’m just at my local Mexican restaurant or whatever.”
Jeff Church: Exactly. It’s not medicinal. It’s more recreational I feel like but all recreation is medicine in my mind as well but it’s kind of weird. We have these 2 different classifications. We have the medical and we have recreational. I also believe in spiritual. I think that that would be in that recreational class of extracts.
Shango Los: Yeah I agree with you. I’m one of those people who believe that we’re all patients because even if we’re buying at a recreational store and even if really our goal is just to get high, well we’re getting high as an anti-anxiety because the rest of our life is so stressful and we want a little bit of respite and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. We’re going to take a short break and be right back. You are listening to the Ganjapreneur.Com podcast.
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Welcome back you are listening to the Ganjapreneur.Com podcast. I’m your host Shango Los and our guest this week is Jeff Church of Thinc Pure. Before the break we were talking about the nature of terpenes, why we extract them and use them, how they can influence us like aromatherapy. We talked about bringing in terpenes from food sources and different sources. I want to talk specifically now about extracting terpenes from whole plant cannabis because that is absolutely the rage right now.
People are talking about it in forums everywhere and the idea is that you are going to remove the entire flavor profile of a particular strain say for example Gorilla Glue and you’re going to take that whole terpene profile so that the liquid terpenes that you end with smell and taste just like Gorilla Glue. Jeff why don’t you tell us a little bit about how that found its way into extraction coolness now so people have got a little historical frame for this discussion?
Jeff Church: I think it really all started when people started to try and preserve their terpenes in their extracts. Every extraction method that there is whether it’s alcohol, CO2, Butane, Propane — you’re extracting terpenes but you’re also extracting the cannabinoids. This movement to really have just pure terpenes is the new phase of evolution in extraction. There’s many many many different ways to extract cannabinoids and terpenes together and there’s probably just as many ways to extract just terpenes.
You can do steam distillations. You can do vacuum distillations. There’s cold trapping that you can do. You can do your distillations with heat. You can do them in a cryo distillation. There’s many many many different ways to slice it but essentially what you’re doing is extracting the essential oils of the plant. Just like you would have lavender essential oils you’re extracting the essential oils of cannabis.
That smell, that taste really carries over. It’s completely potentized into something where if you have one drop of it and you smoke that on a nail it tastes like you just smoked a whole gram or so of extract.
Shango Los: I first got a good understanding of the power of it when … oh actually I was with you. It was at Emerald Cup this past year down in Sonoma County at the fairgrounds and you said “Oh man you’ve got to see this” and we went over to the United Cannabis booth and Tony Verzura was doing his demo and the place was packed.
There were all these heads all around and he was kind of explaining to people and showing how he did it and then he was painting people’s slabs. If you’ve never seen this this is something pretty cool. He was taking this really small amount of raw terpenes that he had extracted with this tiny little paint brush and then people were going up to him with slabs of oil that they said “Oh. This oil is mediocre.” Shatter or wax or something. He was painting along the slab and you could tell that there was something going on there because it was changing the coloration of it.
The person who’s slab it was was getting all super excited. Then they’d pass it back and we’d smell it and I’m like “Oh my gosh. This suddenly went from smelling like mediocre oil to the best Gorilla Glue oil everywhere.” People were really jazzed about it.
Jeff Church: Yeah I think it’s a really cool concept. You can take pretty much any extract that you have whether you’ve got a vape pen or you’ve got a slab of BHO or Rosin or Dry Sift or Bubble Hash it really doesn’t matter what it is. You can add the terpenes to that and the really cool thing about it is if you’re smoking this one extract that you have all the time you’ll hit this level where you’re not feeling the effects as much as you had been before. It’s effective. It definitely does what it’s supposed to do but you don’t really have as great of an effect.
If you just add a little bit of terpenes to it that effect is amplified quite a bit and you really get the effect of the cultivar that it was extracted from. Where you’re really used to this one kind of hash per se, adding the terpenes to it will make it a whole new world where it’s just like smoking another strain that you haven’t been smoking.
Then adding a different strain of terpenes to it will affect you in a whole different way. Whatever the effect of that original cannabis was it’s going to be mirrored in this. I think that’s really what has got a lot of people caught up in this and really turned out a lot of terpene fan boys out there.
Shango Los: Yeah. I actually saw that first person at Emerald Cup. I was hanging out in the chill room behind the Forever Flowering tent there with Eric Branstad and he had a whole bunch of really hardcore Humboldt heads there and they were passing around one of the small terpene vials that Tony was selling. I don’t remember what the strain was but they painted some onto some oil and one by one they were doing dabs and you could just see this look on their face of like salvation like the sky was going to open up. They’re like “Ah! This is a perfect terpene experience.”
It was really astonishing to see people with a really exceptional taste in cannabis to be so overjoyed by having such a flavorful dab. People were being converted right there instantly into fan boys.
Jeff Church: It is definitely the holy grail of modulation of cannabinoids. Like I said you get stuck on one variety because you’ve got a whole bunch of it and adding one drop of this just makes it a whole other world. People really look for flavor in their cannabis. They want that to carry over into the smoke. It’s really part of that enjoyment that you get from smoking cannabis. It’s the flavor. Without that it’s just a high that’s kind of flat and really not as enjoyable.
Shango Los: Right on so let’s kind of shift gears. Let’s talk a little bit about how to use these terpenes as a product developer. We’ve talked about people have been extracting terpenes in all these different ways and there’s a lot of ways that you can go about it but once you have the terpenes in your possession I’m sure that there’s more to do with it than just simply painting onto a slab at home. What are some of the applications that you have seen product developers in licensed cannabis using the terpenes for?
Jeff Church: I actually haven’t seen much in the licensed arena like 502 recreational. I haven’t really seen much at all except for terpenes that are extracted from other plants. If we’re talking cannabis derived terpenes it’s mostly been done in the medical states. I would say that Tony Verzura has been the pioneer in all of this. He’s created what he calls terp melt which is full melt bubble that he adds a drop or two to every gram and he mixes that all together. I just changes the flavor completely.
There’s terp rosin as well. People add it to their vaporizer cartridges. Some friends of mine down in California have a product that they make that’s a distillate of cannabinoids so basically the most refined cannabinoid experience that you can have out there that’s pretty much free of terpenes and then they derived from cannabis terpenes and add that back into it and put that into their vape pens. They have these cannabis derived distillate vape pens that are extremely popular because it tastes better than any dab that you’ve had before honestly.
Vaporizing it at that lower temperature is really nice. That’s another thing just as a little side note. People tend to dab in the 600 to 800 degree range, 800 being way way too hot for my taste when you’re talking about regular cannabinoids and terpenes but if you are going to dab just straight terpenes which is kind of the thing that people are doing a lot of nowadays you want to be down in the 400 degree, 4 to 450 to really get that full flavor.
There’s many different products out there. There’s people that are even putting these terpenes into edibles, not like a brownie but like a capsule. You’re adding them in there so that the modulating effects are present when you’re eating that capsule. Where before I feel like a decarbed cannabis oil where you’ve decarbed it completely. You’ve boiled most of the terpenes out of there so the effect is going to be pretty flat. It’s going to be just the THC effect with a little bit of modulation of whatever terpenes were able to make it through that whole decarb process but if you add just a little bit of these terpenes to that product you get all of the modulating effects that you would be getting from smoking the different strains.
It’s really a game changer. I think that the future of extracts at least is purification and addition of these cannabis derived terpenes.
Shango Los: That just begs the question to me about where does that fall on the line with whole plant medicine? We’d been saying that you need to use the whole cannabis plant because all of the small and discrete and not really researched parts are all essential for the entourage effect so that you get the best medical impact possible from the cannabis.
What we’re talking about is doing a whole plant terpene extraction and then adding it hopefully to a whole plant product. How do you see it? Do you see it as no longer being whole plant or are we now like super whole plant, we’re beyond whole plant?
Jeff Church: I see it as a whole plant extract but at the same time it’s not like FECO. It’s not like the Rick Simpson Oil type thing. That’s really a whole nother classification and honestly Rick Simpson Oil people are really into it being a full plant extract. It’s devoid of a lot of the terpenes because you have to boil out the ethanol that you’ve used to extract it and anything that’s volatile at less than the boiling point of ethanol, is going to be lost in the equation.
It is really super whole plant but at the same time I think that it’s more getting to a point where you’re trying to take these different classes of chemicals from within the plant and refine them into their most pure forms, leaving all of the things that you don’t want in your smoke: waxes, chlorophylls, and things like that that are harsh to smoke. Leaving all of those behind and then recombining these things together to make something that’s the most enjoyable extracts that I’ve every smoked.
Shango Los: Wow. Well there you go. We’re going to take another short break and be right back. You are listening to the Ganjapreneur.com Podcast.
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Welcome back. You are listening to the Ganjapreneur.com podcast. I am your host Shango Los and our guest this week is Jeff Church of Thinc Pure. Before the break we were talking about all the different applications for extracted terpenes that you can add back into a cannabis product to fortify it to make it both a stronger modulation experience as medicine and also just a damn good dab for recreation and just fun.
In your last bit before we went to a commercial you said something that totally jumped up for me. You said that some people are dabbing terps. Do you mean that they’re dabbing just straight terps and so they’re not dabbing THC?
Jeff Church: That’s exactly what I mean. It’s a really interesting concept. If you’re all about the tastiest flower, the tastiest extract, this is really the pinnacle of cannabis is dabbing its terpenes. Tony Ferzura from United Cannabis really popularized this. He has a terpene dab bar that he sets up at the different cannabis festivals. You know the Emerald Cup. He was doing it as well down at High Times in San Bernardino. People just line up for low temperature dabs.
What’s really really interesting about it is you could have a dab of terpenes as your first dab of the day and you’re going to feel high. There’s certain qualities to the terpenes where they kind of act as solvents on the cannabinoids that are sitting on the receptors and your cannabinoid receptors can be somewhat blocked to where they’re packed with cannabinoids on the surface. When you add this terpene in there it really loosens that up a bit and allows for the cannabinoids to pass through the membrane and hit those receptors in a more efficient way where you’re feeling more effect from the cannabinoids that you had in your system from smoking last night.
You’ll really feel high one way or the other and it’s very strain specific but it’s all about the flavor. People are all about the terps nowadays so doing this is something really exciting. I would caution that smoking pure terpenes may not be the healthiest thing for you.
Shango Los:I was thinking about that too man. We were already talking about dabbing a concentration of terpenes, people potentially getting terpene toxicity and being part of the “Oh he dabbed too hard and then he fell over,” right?
Jeff Church: Yeah I don’t know it’s going to be “dabbed too hard and fell over” but really damaging your lungs is something that can happen by smoking too much terpenes. You really want to be careful. There’s a threshold where you don’t want to pass that too much or else it’s going to be a harsh smoke. It’s going to not be enjoyable. It’s enjoyable the moment you’re smoking it but down the road when your lung capacity is being diminished by smoking these pure terpenes it could become an issue.
Shango Los: It’s not really the kind of a thing that somebody’s really going to abuse though is it or do to much of? I can understand how dabbing some terpenes. It’s your first one of the day or kind of mix it in with your dab session or something like that. That might be enjoyable but it’s not really the kind of thing that somebody’s going to be dabbing terps all the time just straight is it?
Jeff Church: That’s definitely what a lot of people are getting into. I think that the most popular thing is really taking a dab and dipping it into the terpenes.
Shango Los: Right on. That I get.
Jeff Church: Then you’re talking maybe 10, 15% of your dab is going to be terpenes and the rest is just going to be cannabinoids and other constituents that are in the smoke so it’s kind of deluded. Just like you wouldn’t take a lot of essential oils and apply them directly to your skin it’s the same sort of thing. Essential oils a lot them you really want to cut them in another oil, a carrier oil, before you put it onto the skin so that there’s not too high of a concentration in any one spot on your skin. Same can be true for your lungs as well.
Shango Los: You also mentioned the other product was RSO because of course the terps are very volatile and they are burnt off from heating, making RSO and FECO. It makes me curious about doing a distillation at the beginning of the plant material you’re going to use to remove the terpenes at that point and then go ahead and make your RSO. Then stir back in the terpenes at the end and somehow maybe kind of Frankensteining back together a whole plant FECO extract. Have you seen anybody do that yet?
Jeff Church: It sounds like you need a patent. I have not seen anybody do that with FECO, with a full plant extract. I have seen people doing that and I’ve done it myself with the distillate where you have the cannabinoids and then you have the distillate or you have the terpenes that they’re extracted then you have the distillate of the cannabinoids that you extract from the same type of material.
There’s a company down in California that’s doing it. There’s actually a whole bunch of different companies down there in California doing it right now.
Shango Los: I think that’s one of the problems with trying to patent any of this is that there’s so many different people working on it at the same time in parallel and people are sharing the science with each other that it makes it really hard to secure originality on paper.
Jeff Church: Right. I was mostly joking.
Shango Los: It is happening even though we joke about it. Right on. One more thing I want to hit on too: where do you see the direction this is heading in? I know this is already bleeding edge stuff but where do you see this idea of extracting the terps and fortifying cannabis products heading here in the next couple years?
Jeff Church: I really see a lot more extraction of terpenes and the re addition of those into other lines of already existing extracts that are out there just like Tony’s been doing with the terp rosin and the terp melts and other companies been doing with the distillate added with the terps. I think that that’s really what it is is us finding out what we like in cannabis and what we don’t like in cannabis.
I don’t like to smoke an oil that has a whole bunch of chlorophyll in it like an RSO. I would much rather smoke something that has a higher purity of cannabinoids in it. The same is true with terpenes. I think adding these purified elements back together and creating the ideal extract that is devoid of all of the parts that we don’t want it really the future.
Shango Los: Right on so that’s all the time we have for you today. Thanks for being on the show again Jeff.
Jeff Church: Definitely. It’s a pleasure to be here. Thank you.
Shango Los: You can follow Jeff Church on Instagram @CannabisReverend. You can find out more about his company at their website ThincPure.Com and that’s “think” with a C, no K. Finally if you want to hear more from Jeff you’ll find an earlier Ganjapreneur podcast episode with him about rosin oil in the podcast archives and a presentation he made on rosin at CannaCon Seattle this year in the video section of the Ganjapreneur.Com website.
You can find more episodes of the Ganjapreneur podcast in the podcast section at Ganjapreneur.Com and in the Apple iTunes store. On the Ganjapreneur.Com website you will find the latest cannabis news, product reviews, and cannabis jobs updated daily along with transcriptions of this podcast. You can also download the Ganjapreneur.Com app in iTunes and GooglePlay. Do you have a company that wants to reach our national audience of cannabis enthusiasts? Email email@example.com to find out how. Today’s show was produced by Pat Packett. I am your host Shango Los.